Reply to the Original Poster

Thanks for taking your time to read this.

Here is my reply:

If you would like more information about using a porn filter, let me know. I'll be glad to help.

When I spoke about sexual beauty, I wasn't necessarily referring to portrayals of sexual intercourse, but I'll get to that. Pornography or erotica takes many forms. Things that one person thinks is erotic are boring or disgusting to someone else. But, lets assume that most males in Western culture agree that seeing a healthy attractive topless woman is erotic. It is a form of sexual beauty. It has been celebrated in art for centuries. Of course, the argument becomes what is art and what is porn? Porn usually has a deliberate erotic intent; art doesn't. The Bible often mentions  sexual beauty in a positive way, whether it was the sight of Bathsheba bathing outside which said “she was good to look upon”, a man taking pleasure in his wife's sexuality (Proverbs 5), David's ruddy appearance, a soldier admiring a captive girl to take home as his concubine (Deut.21:11) or Solomon admiring the body of the Shulamite or her admiring his physique. There is a Bible  passage that describes in great detail a female lusting to have her breasts squeezed and nipples caressed and how she is craving men whose penises are as large as mule's and who cum as much as a stallion. Since these passages are gratuitously erotic, we can deduce that God doesn't have a problem with written erotica. Logically, He wouldn't oppose pictorial representations either, since the words paint mental pictures; but I'm getting ahead of myself.  So, the argument that when sexual depictions are shared with others, it is no longer approved by God, seems weak.

Consider further that if Adam and Eve had not sinned, we would be living on a planet of 6.7 billion   naked people having sex where ever we felt, because there was no shame in being nude and no instruction to have sex in privacy. Shame over public sexuality was a result of the fall of Man, not a product of God's will. Yet, this is a righteous shame that we should have and honor. People should be ashamed of themselves when they do something wrong. But, if a couple videotapes themselves and lets other adults see their video tape, in what way have they sinned? If they have sex in a public place, yes, that's a sin.

I like the yourbrainonporn slide show series too! The parent organization teaches some type of tantric or mystical type sexual philosophy and the narrator is an atheist, so I don't dig those things, but the scientific presentation of the causes of porn addiction is VERY helpful for those wishing to understand what has happened to them and why they have such a hard time stopping. I'm ALL FOR ending porn addiction and I agree with most of their suggestions on how to reboot the addicted brain.

I agree that porn is addictive and must be used wisely, if at all. Agreed, that a person who has ever been addicted to porn needs to KNOW for a fact that they are no longer addicted before entering marriage. If it's still a temptation for them, they are still an addict, IMO. I'm not saying they can't look at it at all, but if they're engaged, this is something the fiancée has a right to know about and share or decline. Secret looking becomes an addictive, destructive habit.

Your point that a person who is accustomed to a virtual harem, being in trouble now having to satisfy himself with one partner is a good one! We often think that real sex will cure our addiction to virtual sex, and that's usually not the case. If we had to choose between the two, most guys will pick real sex every time. But, guys want BOTH, not Either Or. Many don't see it as a conflict or if they do, it confuses them. They're actually right. It's not a conflict, biblically, IMO. Modern marriage laws, false Church doctrines, cultural trends and romance stories have made it unacceptable. If he were born in Israel under the law, he would normally be married and having sex with his 13 year old bride by the time he was 16 or so. So, there was little problem with premarital sex, obviously.  There was no rule against a male, married or not,  having sex with any unmarried female as long as she wasn't a close relative (Lev.18)or serving an idol (Deut.23:17).  Adultery only applies to married females in the Bible ( Lev.18:20 ). This was the sexual reality that the New Testament writers lived in, being Jews. Obviously, then, porn would not conflict with such a relaxed policy toward male sexuality. So, from the Bible and therefore, God's perspective, porn isn't a problem unless the porn portrays rape, incest, adultery, gay sex, bestiality, and anything that He has forbidden (Leviticus 18). If porn stirs up a desire for forbidden sexual relations, then its to be shunned. I'm open to discussion on this of course.

I agree that if a guy prefers masturbation to sex, he has a problem, he is sinning against his wife and is lazy in my opinion. Sex can be disappointing at first for the reasons you mention. Part of that is his fault, the other part is lack of knowledge of sexual technique and lack of training of the female muscles. Because some guys have ED due to porn use, doesn't make porn or masturbation bad, it just means these guys need to get educated and if they are addicted to porn or masturbation, they need to get addicted to their wife instead. You can see in this illustration of yours how backward our society is: it exposes kids to constant doses of sexuality and erotic things, then tells them don't get married or have sex until you're 22 or so and out of college. Meantime, young people are developing long term masturbation habits under a cloak of shame and despair. All manner of cottage industries sprout up to “cure sexual addiction” and “promote recovery” all due to a man-made unnecessary problem.

Thanks for the Tumbler blog link. Looks interesting.

You are incorrect in asserting that a man who is accustomed to porn and masturbation doesn't last long in the sack. The exact opposite is true. Guys who orgasm quickly during masturbation or porn are likely in a situation where they might get caught, so they do it fast. Whether a guy is with his hand or his wife, mind control and technique have to be employed to delay orgasm. A guy who has had an orgasm an hour before sex  is going to last longer with his wife, than a guy who has been horny for days or weeks and finally gets his opportunity.

Paul DID NOT WRITE that there is to be not even a hint of sexual immorality among you. That's the NIV rendering. The point of that verse is that God's people are not to be sexually immoral in any way. The NIV tends to translate the word porneia by “sexual immorality”. That's an “OK” rendering, but it doesn't tell us what it is. The King James translates it “fornication”. Fornication may mean premarital sex to our grandparents, but it didn't mean that in the Bible.

Job's covenant in all likelihood was a commitment not to commit adultery, as the rest of the context indicates. However, I think the verse doesn't really make sense as it has been translated and the remarks of Adam Clarke that this virgin (Heb. Bethulah) is actually an Canaanite idol makes a lot more sense to me; since polygyny was lawful from ancient times, there would be no reason for Job to avoid looking at or thinking upon an unbetrothed virgin. ( Reading the Bible while wearing 20th century glasses doesn't work.)

Your reference to Exodus 22:16-17 proves that premarital sex wasn't a sin. The girl involved was a virgin living in her father's home. A virgin's dowry had to be paid, or else the family would be robbed by this indiscretion. Once the bridal price was paid, they could decide whether to agree to the marriage or not.  There was no sacrifice ordered, no punishment for the sex act. It was not a sin. There are no rules about having sex with a single woman living on her own, probably because that was a rarity in those days. Jewish scholars acknowledge that there was no rule against premarital sex in their Bible, other than it being an act of tentative marriage. Engagements and marriage are the traditional things to do, but they aren't required in the Bible. Jewish law itself states that one of the ways to contract a marriage is to have sex ( ). True, it wasn't the traditional model that we inherited from them, but it is valid. This corresponds to the Bible command, “leave your parents and cleave to your woman (there is no Hebrew or Greek word for wife) and (then) the two become “one flesh”, i.e. marriage is the result of sex. (If there was not an agreement for this to be a marriage, then it can be annulled or disregarded.)

Your second reference is to the case of a girl who posed as a virgin to a man who paid for her to be a virgin (6 months pay by my estimate), and then brought a charge against her (Deut.22:13).  If her parents couldn't prove that she was a virgin on her wedding night, then she could be stoned to death for “playing the whore in her father's house”. In all likelihood, she had been betrothed to this man who had paid the bridal price for a virgin. A betrothed woman was not permitted to have sex with anyone else on penalty of death. Thus, she had been committing technical adultery against him before the wedding day, just like Mary, the mother of Jesus was thought to have done. Needless to say, these extenuating circumstances are unrelated to today's culture, and the passage itself says nothing about a single woman living on her own having sex, or a single girl living at home having sex but not being required to remain a virgin. The passage is irrelevant to determining the morality of premarital sex.

Jesus warned against harboring the thought of adultery and that if we act upon a desire to commit adultery by something as simple as looking at a woman for that reason, then we have become guilty of adultery in our heart. Realizing that adultery was having sex with another man's wife, then we understand Jesus was warning against thinking about having sex with another man's wife. He by no means outlawed thinking about or looking at women in general or thinking about having sex. I don't believe your quote from Immanuel Kant was his words, but reflect the concept that our motivation is an important thing when it comes to our moral standing. Agreed, of course.